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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2008 7:39:46 GMT 10
Lower Blue Mts..another dead wallaby..large black cat seen prancing round the same property previously.This surprise was left on the front lawn between 6am and 7 am several days ago. 
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Post by JeffJ on Apr 23, 2008 8:14:41 GMT 10
Hey Mike! WOW! That's an unsettling photo. How much does a wallaby like that weigh(when intact)? Jeff  |
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Post by mingle on Apr 23, 2008 8:28:21 GMT 10
Interesting!
Do you have the carcass, or just this pic?
Would be good if someone had some analysis of the teeth/bites marks and also some pictures of any other damage (claw marks, etc) that could be compared to known predators (ie: leopard/puma)...
It looks very fresh in the pic, but I guess it's gone a bit off by now?
Mike.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2008 9:11:46 GMT 10
Noice 1. If they could get saliva off Azaria Chamberlains jumpsuit then why not off this carcase?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2008 10:33:30 GMT 10
| Hey Mike! WOW! That's an unsettling photo. How much does a wallaby like that weigh(when intact)? Jeff |
| Do you have the carcass, or just this pic? |
| Would be good if someone had some analysis of the teeth/bites marks and also some pictures of any other damage (claw marks, etc) that could be compared to known predators (ie: leopard/puma)... |
The same mistake was made regarding the emmaville skin.
Here is another from the same general area..notice the nice claw marks at the end of the video..
video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3685741038205026188&hl=en
| If they could get saliva off Azaria Chamberlains jumpsuit then why not off this carcase? |
Sure...we tried that on another kill.
We went with a yes/no saliva test for canid markers.
First test..Came back negative.
The ag dept didnt like that..tested again.
Same result.
NSW ag didnt like that..and needed another test.They "accidently" thought they had sent all the saliva swabs to be tested and destroyed and wouldnt accept samples the national parks had swabbed and kept for us because "it breaks the clean flow of evidence collection".
Yeah %$#@*&^ right..!!
But..amazingly..they found some more and it was sent to WA.
Result...came back postive.
We thought that was sus..sent overseas for mt/dna species id.
4 months later....no result still.
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Post by youcantry on Apr 23, 2008 10:34:53 GMT 10
Hey Mike! WOW! That's an unsettling photo. How much does a wallaby like that weigh(when intact)? Jeff Oh  and I thought you were just talking about mbw's avatar   ;D |
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Post by youcantry on Apr 23, 2008 10:43:27 GMT 10
Okay - not that I'm doubting the culprit here, but let's methodically go through at least one other option...
mbw, in your opinion, what are the chances this thing either died naturally (personally don't think so - condition is too good) or was killed by foxes or dogs which then decapitated the body?
(I do believe foxes are capable of both killing and decapitating wallabies)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2008 10:50:38 GMT 10
We get a few around here too, most of ours have clean "cuts" as though flesh was removed with a knife. I generally attribute those to a thylacoleonid because I don't know of any other animal that could bite like that. We do get some where bones are gnawed which usually indicates dogs as the culprit, we don't appear to have wild dogs in the area but do have irresponsible dog owners.
Very rarely we get a kill that is a big cat this becomes obvious because the kill is by strangulation or suffocation with bite marks on the throat or nose and the bones appear 'sandpapered' where the cat licks the meat off with its rough tongue. Cat kills are often revisited by the predator within 2-3 days so if there is a lot of meat left it is worth staking out or leaving a camera.
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Post by youcantry on Apr 23, 2008 11:14:57 GMT 10
Could the cuts be attributed to the flesh tearing along natural contours?
Wouldn't a cat perfer to go for the neck? (I recall reading that in Africa most big cats' canine teeth are spaced at exactly the right distance to dislocate a single neck vertebra of their primary prey species. In other words - a quick kill by chomping down on the neck)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2008 11:20:49 GMT 10
| Could the cuts be attributed to the flesh tearing along natural contours? |
| Wouldn't a cat perfer to go for the neck? |
| I recall reading that in Africa most big cats' canine teeth are spaced at exactly the right distance to dislocate a single neck vertebra of their primary prey species. In other words - a quick kill by chomping down on the neck |
| or was killed by foxes or dogs which then decapitated the body |
foxes/dogs are sloppy killers/eaters..this was almost machine like with vacuum finish..we stuck the carcass up a tree..that night..something went up the tree, held onto the stump somehow and had a munch/lick..
| I do believe foxes are capable of both killing and decapitating wallabies |
yep..
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2008 11:24:45 GMT 10
Okay - not that I'm doubting the culprit here, but let's methodically go through at least one other option... mbw, in your opinion, what are the chances this thing either died naturally (personally don't think so - condition is too good) or was killed by foxes or dogs which then decapitated the body? (I do believe foxes are capable of both killing and decapitating wallabies) Too many decapitated and 'cleaned out' wallabies have been turning up for their deaths to be deemed 'natural'...that, and the state of the carcass is, apart from the head, quite intact, seemingly ruling out foxes/dogs. Canids prefer to chase/nip/rip apart their victims. The absence of other bites/marks would seem to rule out a dog at present. Ruby  PS Most of the big cat family prefer to kill by crushing the windpipe thereby suffocating the prey. Shock might also play a small role. |
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Post by youcantry on Apr 23, 2008 11:27:38 GMT 10
Hi Ruby,
can you name the suburb?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2008 11:28:18 GMT 10
Hey Mike! WOW! That's an unsettling photo. How much does a wallaby like that weigh(when intact)? Jeff Oh and I thought you were just talking about mbw's avatar ;D Avatar?  I thought that was MBW himself ... ;D |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2008 11:33:33 GMT 10
Hi Ruby, can you name the suburb? No - I'm not at liberty. Ruby |
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Post by youcantry on Apr 23, 2008 11:38:52 GMT 10
no worries ... understood  |
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Post by molloch on Apr 23, 2008 14:30:58 GMT 10
That looks like a black swamp wallaby, so in terms of its weight ~20kgs is a _big_ one, 15kg is more like average weight. The dimesions of the hind legs look a bit odd but might just be perspective? Makes it look more like a pademellon in proportions?
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Post by youcantry on Apr 23, 2008 15:22:44 GMT 10
Hope it's not a parma wallaby. Swamp wallabies have very black hands and forearms - this one appears to have paler hands and forearms in comparison to its back.
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Post by mingle on Apr 23, 2008 16:06:25 GMT 10
If it was a thylacoloid, then there should be obvious signs of those big incisiors, surely? With the dentition of thylacoleo, it would be hard to slice a carcass like that without showing clear signs of those big, clunky fangs... Unless I misunderstand they way those slicing teeth were suppose work? Is some of the base of the skull still present? Also, can I see what looks like a knife mark/cut (see following clip)?  Hmm.... P.S. mbwmbw, I can just imagine you saying" "Crazy fooool!" (assuming you DO look like B.A. Baracus!) :-) |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2008 17:09:47 GMT 10
Hey Molloch..your right...the person who tried to pick it up guesstimated that sort of weight..they may have been wrong..| Also, can I see what looks like a knife mark/cut |
| Avatar? I thought that was MBW himself |
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Post by JeffJ on Apr 23, 2008 17:31:21 GMT 10
Hey Mingle! For what is is worth. As far as I can tell, based on what I have learned about the feeding mechanics of thylacoleonids, and how it compares with placental mammals, it would be most likely that the two are alike in that respect. In this I mean that the large incisor fangs in TC funtioned just like the canines in placental carnivores, used primarily to obtain and kill the prey item. Then as feeding commenced it would bite off chunks using the side of the mouth bringing the carnassials into play to "process" the food. Just like you see lions or other big cats using the side of the mouth to slice off meat or bone. In the way you see a dog chew a bone, it uses the carnassials to work on it, not the canines. Something that sticks out on this kill is the very clean scalloped cuts along the edge(like inverted letter "C's)and I see 4 of them plainly. That "knife cut" looks like it might be just a continuation of the bite mark from the slice taken out on the far left. On the back it looks as though there are some scratch marks too. What animal is responsible for this kill I can't say, but I can say a dog did not do this. Jeff |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2008 17:38:09 GMT 10
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Post by JeffJ on Apr 23, 2008 17:41:15 GMT 10
You know, it just dawned on me, but I have a thylacoleo skull, as well as a puma skull that I could make "bite" a layer of clay that would represent the skin of a prey animal, using the carnassials only, to see what pattern is left behind. I will do this tomorrow, and post the photos. This should be a interesting exercise. Jeff |
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Post by youcantry on Apr 23, 2008 19:12:16 GMT 10
Great! |
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Post by wally1 on Apr 23, 2008 20:35:45 GMT 10
So, whats new, wallabies are having their heads nipped off all the time.
Also roos, and foxes. Dogs bodies have been found at kennel with head gone, other times head has been chained to kennel with body gone, alas poor Rags.
This wallaby is a typical bigcat kill, it would come back next night or the next to eat the rest. there is sign of licking around stump of neck.
Many sheep have been found still alive with the forepart of head bitten off. Others with quantities of flesh taken from buttox, still alive.
In WA a bush hermit turned up headless. his little dog was with the body so got the blame for decapitating the man.
Lambs in their hundreds or rather thousands have been found headless with no sign of blood, all sucked dry.
I have been told by Canadians that malle pumas prior to rutting will go on a blood lust, killing and sucking animals dry.
I am positive that Aust Bigcat will do the same.
Mollock will you send your address again please, the disc I promised 12 months ago is ready, hopefully I am making success ful copies of the Radium Hill Tiger. I have what I hope is an acceptable explanation for the presence of this critter.
H A G D Wally
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Post by JeffJ on Apr 24, 2008 1:23:54 GMT 10
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2008 9:02:21 GMT 10
Good work Jeff, that seems to demonstrate what I have been telling everyone for about 40 years it is not a cat. Flesh appears sliced not chewed straight line bites indicate that we do have a thylacoleonid.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2008 16:40:57 GMT 10
Nice work Jeff !!
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Post by youcantry on Apr 24, 2008 21:03:10 GMT 10
Excellent work, and so simply done. Make sure you leave this image available on the web for a long time as a handy reference! |
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Post by mingle on Apr 30, 2008 22:42:46 GMT 10
Hi Jeff,
Any chance of doing another test-run with some size-guide (inches & cm) and some indictaion of the relative sizes of the skulls used?
It'd also be good if you could do a mock-up of a wallaby neck and run the tests again! :-)
Cheers,
Mike.
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Post by JeffJ on May 1, 2008 7:57:51 GMT 10
Heya Mingle! Here is the stats: The carnassial(third premolar actually)is 50 millimeters long in TC, in the mountain lion(felis c.)carnassial group(2 teeth combined)it's 35 millimeters. The skull of thylacoleo is quite a bit larger than that of the puma, tc skull is 10 inches long and over 8 inches wide, the puma is 7 inches long and 5 inches wide. I will try to get some skull photos up soon, Jeff |
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and I thought you were just talking about mbw's avatar 
;D
I thought that was MBW himself ... ;D
