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Post by mingle on Mar 24, 2008 11:46:55 GMT 10
Hi All...
A few things that make me slightly sceptical (and believe me, I'd LOVE to see one, or find out they do still exist!) are:
1: The thylacoleo is believed to have evolved to prey on the (definitely) extinct diprotodons and other megafauna, so what does it eat now?
2: Following on from 1, if they are supposed to attack cattle/livestock, why aren't there more kills? If they are still out there, feeding on cattle and sheep, there should be a large and consistent number of unexplained kills in all of the areas the sightings occur.
3: No solid evidence in the forms of carcasses/bones of dead specimens have ever been found (discounting the reports of roadkills which have NEVER been retained/collected for closer examination!). Not sure when the thylacoleo disappeared from the fossil record, but this is also another issue...
4: The seemingly huge difference in colouration between different sightings (black/grey/tawny/striped). Surely such a (presumably) small population couldn't evolve into such diverse colours?
Now, while I do harbour some reservations, I am certainly a believer in the continued existence of the thylacine and hope that thylacoleo is still hanging on!
I actually have some of my OWN explanations/responses to the points I raised above, but would love to hear what other people think and how they counter my points...
Cheers,
Mike.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2008 12:54:43 GMT 10
I dont know if this animal exists..but I would sure as hell love it if it did since it may explain a few odd reports..
2: Following on from 1, if they are supposed to attack cattle/livestock, why aren't there more kills? If they are still out there, feeding on cattle and sheep, there should be a large and consistent number of unexplained kills in all of the areas the sightings occur.
1/if the majority of the TC kills are of non commercial animals..natives..then you/we would rarely hear about it.
2/if it does snack on farmer browns animals...farmer brown may assume its dingo/dog attacks/secondary predation..and not tell anyone
3/if it does snack on farmer browns animals and farmer brown thinks its not canid attacks then he may not tell anyone..and if he does...the "word" would have to leak back to some of "us" anyway..
"We" are probably aware of less than 1% off truly odd predation that is happening in Australia..
4/Then the magical word would have to leak onto forums and sometimes the general media...and "we" may miss that if it is some remote hick newspaper in the back of WA etc..
5/How would you separate the kill site of a large felid of any form..and a TC.?Especially after secondary predation has happened..
3: No solid evidence in the forms of carcasses/bones of dead specimens have ever been found
How many bodies of koalas are found by bushwalkers..?
Now..if the TC has a tiny fraction of the population of koalas..and or lives in even more remote areas...what are the chances of someone finding a skeleton..and..going "hey..that looks odd..I might just photograph that or bring it back".
I have spoken to loads of people who still that think photos of quolls are actually photos of some form of big cat...
4: The seemingly huge difference in colouration between different sightings (black/grey/tawny/striped). Surely such a (presumably) small population couldn't evolve into such diverse colours?
Sure...same sort of problems with the cat stuff...the whole thing is mental..
Mike
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Post by mingle on Mar 24, 2008 13:08:31 GMT 10
Oh, I missed one point off my previous list:
5: These sightings are often of creatures that leap through the tree-tops with the grace and easy of a possum - how does this correlate to the 'rottweiler-sized' thylacoleo sightings?
I can't imagine a rotty leaping from branch to branch, without bringing the entire tree down!
Cheers,
Mike.
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Post by JeffJ on Mar 24, 2008 13:08:43 GMT 10
Well put Mike! Let me add to the coat/coloration thing. I think these animals may go through coat changes. I have a report stating that the animal seen appeared black, but under closer inspection stripes could be seen just barely showing through. Maybe it's a dimorphic thing. I don't know. But it's a thought. Jeff  |
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Post by JeffJ on Mar 24, 2008 13:25:15 GMT 10
Hey Mike(Mingle) Most reports I have obtained that feature large thylacoleonid creatures have them on the ground. But if you are built for climbing, then maybe you have to pick bigger trees if you get bigger. One odd livestock kill had the killer trying to drag the heavy victim up a tree(a bull I believe?). You just never know. ???Jeff
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2008 13:30:05 GMT 10
These sightings are often of creatures that leap through the tree-tops with the grace and easy of a possum - how does this correlate to the 'rottweiler-sized' thylacoleo sightings?"often"....mmm...we have about 320 reports from lower blue mts..and about 400 reports from the rest of Australia.
Offhand..I dont remember any reports with animals leaping around amongst the trees.
Dont remember too many from the net either...though I am sure someone has a few reports of beasties partaking in aboreal gymnastics..somewhere in OZ.
If it was a common characteristic..then it would be commonly reported....ergo... 
Mike
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Post by mingle on Mar 24, 2008 20:22:30 GMT 10
Ah, fair enough Mike, perhaps I was a bit liberal with the use of "often"!
Not sure of previous examples of such large carnivores going undiscovered for so many years - have there been any?
The only recent large mammal I can think of was the Pseudoryx Nghetinhensis, which is a largish deer, discovered in the forests of Vietnam... And it's not as though there weren't any other deer already roaming the forests, which could explain why it had been largely overlooked for so long...
It's a completely different kettle of fish with Thylacoleo though - it can't really be overlooked, or taken for granted (ie: people assuming it was some other, already well-known species).
If they're still out there it would certainly be the most significant zoological discovery in Australian history, and certainly one of the greatest in the world... (stating the obvious, really!)
I'm hoping - oh boy, I'm hoping!
Cheers,
Mike.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2008 21:38:23 GMT 10
Not sure of previous examples of such large carnivores going undiscovered for so many years - have there been any?dsc.discovery.com/news/2007/03/15/leopard_ani.html?category=animals&guid=20070315090030
It was right under their noses...I know thats not exactly what you meant by your question... 
But a poor analogy comes to mind...
In 1937..if you said to me "Not sure of previous examples of such large fish that were supposdly extinct, going undiscovered for so many years - have there been any?"(alluding to the remote chance of this happening)I would have said "no".
And in 1938 the Coelacanth was discovered..
In 1993 if you had said "Not sure of previous examples of such large living fossil like trees going undiscovered in a developed country near a main city" (alluding to the remote chance of course)..I would have said "no".
1994...the Wollemi Pine is discovered.
I could go on....
Hey..I said they were poor analogies anyway... 
New species are discovered all the time..www.wildlifeextra.com/new-species.htmlI'm hoping - oh boy, I'm hoping!We all are..
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2008 9:55:29 GMT 10
At the risk of spamming these points were all covered in my booklet "Thylacoleo Lives" that you can order from my website.
1: The thylacoleo is believed to have evolved to prey on the (definitely) extinct diprotodons and other megafauna, so what does it eat now?
Evidence exists that it preys primarily on kangaroos (of which there are thousands in some areas) and a variety of farm animal
2: Following on from 1, if they are supposed to attack cattle/livestock, why aren't there more kills? If they are still out there, feeding on cattle and sheep, there should be a large and consistent number of unexplained kills in all of the areas the sightings occur.
There often are, when sightings are reported a walk around a 5-10km square area will usually turn up dozens of cases of predation both domestic and native animals. Following one series of sightings I counted eleven domestic animals (on different properties - one farmer didn't lose them all) and a large number of natives and I only covered about 7-8km. (How long since you walked 5-10km in an area where sightings are reported?)
3: No solid evidence in the forms of carcasses/bones of dead specimens have ever been found (discounting the reports of roadkills which have NEVER been retained/collected for closer examination!). Not sure when the thylacoleo disappeared from the fossil record, but this is also another issue...
There is still the report of the "strange animal" shot at Tantanoola in the 1800s even then people could recognise cats & dogs but they were unable to identify this thylocoleonid like creature. I have also pointed out previously that the animal is aborial and any dead ones inside a hollow log would have been cremated by aboriginal fire stick farming. There are few fossils of any animals from this period.
4: The seemingly huge difference in colouration between different sightings (black/grey/tawny/striped). Surely such a (presumably) small population couldn't evolve into such diverse colours?
Colours seem to vary considerably from area to area maybe something to do with evolution. Some colours are better suited to some areas making those individuals more prolific.
5: These sightings are often of creatures that leap through the tree-tops with the grace and easy of a possum - how does this correlate to the 'rottweiler-sized' thylacoleo sightings?
I have only one report of leaping from tree to tree and that was in the Grampians and the sighting was reported in the Melbourne Sun newspaper (sorry I can't recall the date) but the witnesses (a bus load of tourists) could not have all imagined it.
D
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Post by youcantry on Mar 25, 2008 9:57:05 GMT 10
The Giant Panda, once discovered by westerners, went undetected for a further 50 years or so - but again, this was in the 1800s and there would have been few Westerners out there in prime habitat looking for the creature. But again, it's a large animal.
The Sumatran rhino - not seen for (was it?) 20 years, then filmed by WWF last year.
mingle wrote "It's a completely different kettle of fish with Thylacoleo though - it can't really be overlooked, or taken for granted (ie: people assuming it was some other, already well-known species)."
... but this is not true. If thylacoleo is in fact black, then people could be mistaking it for a panther (melanistic leopard). Without a close look you simply see a large black predator and the nearest thing in your mindset is a panther - so you call it that; and there are plenty of big cat sightings (interestingly, most often, if not always, black).
Chris.
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Post by youcantry on Mar 25, 2008 10:03:28 GMT 10
There is still the report of the "strange animal" shot at Tantanoola in the 1800s even then people could recognise cats & dogs but they were unable to identify this thylocoleonid like creature. I thought they agreed it was a wolf that stowed away on a ship. Apart from the Tantanoola tiger, there is Sharon West's photograph of an unusual carcass on a beach in Western Australia (was it 1990s?). I personally am not convinced that it isn't a cat, but some reason otherwise. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2008 11:13:20 GMT 10
If thylacoleo is in fact black, then people could be mistaking it for a panther (melanistic leopard). Without a close look you simply see a large black predator and the nearest thing in your mindset is a panther - so you call it that; and there are plenty of big cat sightings (interestingly, most often, if not always, black). Chris. I would say based on the bulk of observations made in NSW/Victoria/WA recorded to date, only a small handful could be attributed to a Thylacoleo-like creature (witnesses often likening it to a 'giant quoll' or possum, or a cat that's 'not quite right'). Queensland, of course, is another story ;D. All other indicators recorded (most commonly the long thick curved tail, rounded ears, vocalisations etc) would indicate a felid of some variety. Certainly people use the moniker 'panther' for anything large, black and cat-like, without always knowing quite what the animal is, but I don't think that necessarily supports the idea that Thylacoleo is popping up everywhere and people are mis-identifying it. Ruby  |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2008 21:54:34 GMT 10
I thought they agreed it was a wolf that stowed away on a ship.
That decision was made long after the animal had decayed and been rebuilt with dog parts. I am sure that the locals would have recognised a species of dog (as a wolf is) and not just called it a "strange animal". This is the 1800s mostly sailing ships and a few clippers ships coming into use, where would a wolf "stow away" the ships were not that big and took many weeks to make a journey the stow away would be found or starve.
That theory is the most unlikely explanation anyone could have suggested, but because they refuse to believe there is something not yet positively identified they will believe any other idea available, no matter how implausible. It sounds as though nothing has changed since the 1800s.
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Post by youcantry on Mar 26, 2008 13:41:56 GMT 10
This is the 1800s mostly sailing ships and a few clippers ships coming into use, where would a wolf "stow away" the ships were not that big and took many weeks to make a journey the stow away would be found or starve. That theory is the most unlikely explanation anyone could have suggested, but because they refuse to believe there is something not yet positively identified they will believe any other idea available, no matter how implausible. It sounds as though nothing has changed since the 1800s. Fair response. |
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Post by rodgey on Apr 8, 2008 16:13:09 GMT 10
"These sightings are often of creatures that leap through the tree-tops with the grace and easy of a possum - how does this correlate to the 'rottweiler-sized' thylacoleo sightings? I can't imagine a rotty leaping from branch to branch, without bringing the entire tree down!" These guys do okay in the whole large black animal jumping through trees caper. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bennett's_Tree-kangaroo |
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Post by cantona on Apr 8, 2008 22:08:45 GMT 10
Riller's photo also shows an animal, that could certainly be an apparently extinct Thylaceo.
The mountain gorilla was only dicovered by western science in 1902, and when considering the amount of western explorers and civilisations that have been trawling through Africa for hundreds and hundreds of years, this is quite remarkable. Australia is a relatively new country, with expansive size, it is perfectly feasible for an animal used to being persecuted and secretive by nature to persist.
In the UK for example, for years it has been assumed that the European Wildcat (Felis Sylvestris) only held on in the Scottish highlands. However there is now a strong body of evidence that these cats held on in the South West of England until the present, and indeed are still present in Northern England. If this can happen in a country as small and well trampled as the UK, then who knows what secrets the Australian bush has lurking for us.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2008 10:30:54 GMT 10
If the animal is a nocturnal predator it becomes even harder to find - how long since you saw a wombat in the wild?
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Post by youcantry on Apr 9, 2008 12:38:20 GMT 10
how long since you saw a wombat in the wild? Personally, not since I was at Wilson's Prom. Nationally, wombats are commonly sighted. Even a koala isn't a good comparison - my friends just returned from a trip through SA/Vic and could spotlight from the back porch at some caravan parks and see koalas in trees. However, Bennet's Tree-kangaroo (mentioned above) probably isn't seen every day by humans because it's restricted in range to relatively ill-populated areas. Spotted-tailed quolls might be another comparison - arboreal, nocturnal and in this case carnivorous. All the same, researchers *do* find spotted-tailed quolls when they're out there looking (even if they say they are incredibly hard to find). Why don't these researchers photograph big cats? Perhaps their range doesn't overlap study regions? Well it certainly does in the Blue Mountains, but we still don't get big cat photos. In this region however, several researchers have agreed there is likely at least 1 big cat in the area (based on the anecdotal evidence - not a concrete proof). Now imagine thylacoleo *does* exist - but in a remote, poorly populated area. Is it conceivable that it has persisted without detection? Cantona's mountain gorilla and European wilcat stories are interesting. |
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Post by wally1 on Apr 10, 2008 15:53:04 GMT 10
Would anyone know if original hair can be obtained from the Tantaloola Tiger?
It would be interesting to compare it with hair from the Emmerville critter skin, the critter shot 100+ years ago and skin preserved. This would go a long way towards identifying TC.
All I know about this Emmerville critter is the skin and folklore stating that mother critter w as present and was so agro men concerned vamoosed and came back days later to recover the skin.
Re analysis of hair obtained from NE Vic all indications so far indicate thylacine, An identification of the medulla core lattice will be the clincher, one way or the other.
The only record I have of TC vocalisation is 3 reports of the animal taking a defensive stance, opening its mouth in a wide gape and hissing loudly. Dennis has a similar report from near Maryborough Vic.
I collected a report from upper SE of SA of a stock agent finding a large brown shaggy animal rounding up sheep. When he drove between the sheep and the animal it ran at his car and screamed loudly. Unfortunatly this gent is no longer with us.
Any comparitive work would be done by my friend, I do trust him.
Wally
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Post by youcantry on Apr 10, 2008 22:21:31 GMT 10
Hi Wally,
I don't suppose you know any more about the film footage captured in 1973 in South Australia by Liz and Gary Doyle? I'd really like to locate the original footage - or at least a source closer to the original than what we have...
Cheers,
Chris.
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Post by mingle on Apr 10, 2008 22:27:07 GMT 10
Hey Wally,
Where is/who has the Emmerville critter skin?
Cheers,
Mike.
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Post by mingle on Apr 10, 2008 22:33:20 GMT 10
Oh yes, another thing that makes me wonder about thylacoleo:
Why are there no reports of attacks on humans?
Almost all other large carnivores are reported/recorded to have attacked people.
If thylacoleo does exist, surely it's big and bad enough (and close enough to human population centres) to have fancied having a go at some two-legged prey???
On a similar theme - does anyone know if there are any recorded instances of attacks on humans by thylacines?
Hmm...
Cheers,
Mike.
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Post by Wally1 on Apr 10, 2008 23:14:36 GMT 10
I originally located the Emmerville panther skin through 4 go betweens. The story is written in full back in the archives.
The owners name and location will never be divulged.
I obtained a fragment of skin that eventually was sent by MBWMBW to be analysed in Sydney. I wonder whether any was returned No DNA could be obtained. I now regret not extracting some hair which was stiff and bristly The pelage colouration s brown with dark spots.
I have no knowledge of Doyle vision.
I have a pic of the Emmerville panther skin somewhere. I will locate it and clean it up. Some backdrop needs removing.
Mingle, send yout address
watkin.davies@bigpond.com
and I will send you a bushel of paper you will find interesting,
pics and files.
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Post by mingle on Apr 11, 2008 7:51:37 GMT 10
Hi Wally,
I don't suppose the Emmerville skin would be for sale?
It's a pity that it's kept away from scrutiny and examination...
I guess it's a family heir-loom by now???
Cheers,
Mike.
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Post by youcantry on Apr 11, 2008 10:11:10 GMT 10
Hi Mingle, thylacines did bite humans, but generally only when cornered, being shot at and having dogs set upon them. The two exceptions that come to mind were an old blind male that bit a woman on the hand and Fleay's famously filmed thylacine which displayed that threat-yawn which has made the animal famous, them promptly bit him on the bum. The tiger that bit him may or may not have been Benjamin - the last Tasmanian tiger. If it was, he recorded that it was a male - contrary to all popular conception that the last Tasmanian tiger was a female... But then again, his ID on the gender may amount to nothing more than suggesting the tiger in the films, isn't in fact Benjamin. I think the crux comes that the records for the zoo's acquisitions during these final stages of the species, no longer exist. If they did then they would have to show 1 last aquisition - the male that bit Fleay. If they didn't show such an aquisition, then Benjamin may well have been a boy. Read about Benjamin here: wherelightmeetsdark.com/index.php?module=wiki&page=BenjaminTheLastTasmanianTigerTo go to the other extreme, there are stories of children playing ball unsupervised next to a thylacine being kept on a dog chain. The ball would even land on the animal and the girls would just go and get the ball and get back to playing and the thylacine wouldn't bat an eyelid. Read about thylacines as pets here: wherelightmeetsdark.com/index.php?module=wiki&page=ThylacineAsAPet |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2008 11:27:43 GMT 10
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Post by mingle on Apr 11, 2008 12:38:13 GMT 10
Hi Kaz,
Yeah, she's a little monster at times though!
Cheers,
Mike.
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