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Post by vincent on Jun 13, 2018 23:56:48 GMT 10
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Post by dennisw on Jun 14, 2018 11:47:06 GMT 10
I didn't read all 50 ideas but have a few of my own, when you go for a drive do you stop and chat with everyone you see or talk to the sheep and cattle you might see? Why then would an alien race bother to stop and talk to humans? We can't even get on with each other the odds are that if an alien landed and walked up to say hello someone would start shooting at the monster. (There was one report many years ago that claimed this had actually happened.
The alien races may already belong to a Federation which restricts contact with violent argumentative Earthlings. This may well be the most logical answer and is supported by the Christian Bible that claims Christ will return accompanied by "all the host of Heaven" the time for first contact has already been decided.
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Post by vincent on Jun 14, 2018 22:44:22 GMT 10
I didn't read all 50 ideas but have a few of my own, when you go for a drive do you stop and chat with everyone you see or talk to the sheep and cattle you might see? Why then would an alien race bother to stop and talk to humans? We can't even get on with each other the odds are that if an alien landed and walked up to say hello someone would start shooting at the monster. (There was one report many years ago that claimed this had actually happened. The alien races may already belong to a Federation which restricts contact with violent argumentative Earthlings. This may well be the most logical answer and is supported by the Christian Bible that claims Christ will return accompanied by "all the host of Heaven" the time for first contact has already been decided. Your first paragraph seems reasonable to me. I had never thought about "the heavenly host" being a gathering of extraterrestrial creatures. I'll need to think about that one. |
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Post by Ian Thomas on Jun 15, 2018 21:31:22 GMT 10
If they were there we'd see other signs of them besides, say, radio signals. There'd be stellar engineering works we could not miss if, at the top end of town, Kardeshev type civilisations exist. But we don't see'em.
Kardashev scale
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kardashev_scaleNow here's either an inspiring or depressing possibility, depending on your mindset: what if we're the best the Universe has produced?  |
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Post by dennisw on Jun 16, 2018 11:26:42 GMT 10
Some Jewish prayers begin by addressing the Almighty as, "Master of all worlds", I think the messengers(angels) and prophets introduced that term for a reason.
As for expecting to find radio waves or power usage indicating advanced civilisation we are on the verge of quantum communication which requires no radio signals but uses quantum entanglement a more advanced civilisation would likely have achieved this as a necessity for interstellar communication. Assuming greater power consumption as an indication of advanced technology is not logical as even our equipment today is far more efficient than appliances and machinery from 100 years ago. An advanced society would likely reduce power consumption and use sustainable generation such as solar, wind, hydro and tidal energies; leaving little or no detectable indication of their existence.
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Post by lurcherman on Jun 18, 2018 4:02:09 GMT 10
I sometimes wonder if the Elohim could have been aliens.
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Post by vincent on Jun 18, 2018 8:39:41 GMT 10
I sometimes wonder if the Elohim could have been aliens. Van Danikan got there before you. He wrote several books, and now has a tv series, Ancient Aliens, based upon his ideas. |
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Post by vincent on Jun 25, 2018 22:19:54 GMT 10
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Post by dennisw on Jun 26, 2018 9:26:02 GMT 10
As soon as I looked at this my mind said "Bell's Inequality" and I thought of writing a couple of pages on it but as I have already done it in a book and Bell's theory shows me that few will read it all many will still not know what I am trying to explain I looked for a simpler explanation. Instead I found a video that demonstrates the principles that show some of the complexities and is entertaining. |
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Post by vincent on Jun 27, 2018 3:02:32 GMT 10
OK, I watched the video up to about the six minute mark, and I couldn't follow the train of thought, so I stopped watching.
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Post by vincent on Jul 4, 2018 23:43:32 GMT 10
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Post by johannes on Jul 13, 2018 22:59:52 GMT 10
Ian Thomas wrote: There is much more mass in the universe than the quantity of emitted light suggests en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass-to-light_ratio. This is usually explained by dark matter, but what if some of the light emissions are hidden by dyson spheres? On the other hand, perhaps it's better if we are ignored by Kardashev II or III type civilisations. What happens when the galactic empire recognizes that Canada and Australia will sooner or later be under the (however nominal) sovereignity of the Theosophist/Anthroposophist Charles III, and Dugin pulls the strings in Russia? Not to speak of I... certain other religions. Half the terrestrial landmass of this planet is controlled by chaos worshippers, better order an exterminatus to be on the safe side  . |
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Post by Ian Thomas on Jul 15, 2018 15:27:07 GMT 10
On the other hand, perhaps it's better if we are ignored by Kardashev II or III type civilisations. What happens when the galactic empire recognizes that Canada and Australia will sooner or later be under the (however nominal) sovereignity of the Theosophist/Anthroposophist Charles III, and Dugin pulls the strings in Russia? Not to speak of I... certain other religions. Half the terrestrial landmass of this planet is controlled by chaos worshippers, better order an exterminatus to be on the safe side . There's some as say they're here already, keeping a baleful eye on us!  That's Stanton's Friedman's story anyway and if you're a glutton for punishment or just have some time on your hands on a Sunday avo, here he is. 50 minutes' worth .. |
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Post by Ian Thomas on Jul 15, 2018 15:32:45 GMT 10
Mind you, it must be admitted there are more and better pics of flying saucers around than there are of Thylacines & Aussie Big Cats. Yet True Believers believe in the one but not the other. Not sayin' nuthin' in particular ..  |
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Post by vincent on Jul 17, 2018 2:45:09 GMT 10
Looks like an American football, but it can't be, because it's not football (oblate sphere) season yet.
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Post by dennisw on Jul 17, 2018 10:28:39 GMT 10
Looks like an American football, but it can't be, because it's not football (oblate sphere) season yet. It's football season here but that one travelled a long way. |
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Post by dennisw on Jul 26, 2018 10:37:22 GMT 10
Proposed Studies on the Implications of Peaceful Space Activities for Human Affairs, often referred to as "the Brookings Report", was a 1960 report commissioned by NASA and created by the Brookings Institution in collaboration with NASA's Committee on Long-Range Studies. It was submitted to the House Committee on Science and Astronautics of the United States House of Representatives in the 87th United States Congress on April 18, 1961. It was entered into the Congressional Record and can be found in any library possessing the Congressional Record for that year.
Significance
The report has become noted for one short section entitled "The implications of a discovery of extraterrestrial life", which examines the potential implications of such a discovery on public attitudes and values. The section briefly considers possible public reactions to some possible scenarios for the discovery of extraterrestrial life, stressing a need for further research in this area. It recommends continuing studies to determine the likely social impact of such a discovery and its effects on public attitudes, including study of the question of how leadership should handle information about such a discovery and under what circumstances leaders might or might not find it advisable to withhold such information from the public. The significance of this section of the report is a matter of controversy. Persons who believe that extraterrestrial life has already been confirmed and that this information is being withheld by government from the public sometimes turn to this section of the report as support for their view. Frequently cited passages from this section of the report are drawn both from its main body[2] and from its footnotes.[3]
Description
Although the report discusses the need for research on many policy issues related to space exploration, it is most often cited for passages from its brief section on the implications of a discovery of extraterrestrial life.
The report touches on the possibility of covering up extraterrestrial life, including the following passages:
"While face-to-face meetings with it will not occur within the next twenty years (unless its technology is more advanced than ours, qualifying it to visit Earth), artifacts left at some point in time by these life forms might possibly be discovered through our space activities on the Moon, Mars, or Venus." – pages 182–183
"Anthropological files contain many examples of societies, sure of their place in the universe, which have disintegrated when they have had to associate with previously unfamiliar societies espousing different ideas and different life ways; others that survived such an experience usually did so by paying the price of changes in values and attitudes and behavior." – page 183
"Since intelligent life might be discovered at any time via the radio telescope research presently under way, and since the consequences of such a discovery are presently unpredictable because of our limited knowledge of behavior under even an approximation of such dramatic circumstances, two research areas can be recommended:
Continuing studies to determine emotional and intellectual understanding and attitudes -- and successive alterations of them if any -- regarding the possibility and consequences of discovering intelligent extraterrestrial life.
Historical and empirical studies of the behavior of peoples and their leaders when confronted with dramatic and unfamiliar events or social pressures. Such studies might help to provide programs for meeting and adjusting to the implications of such a discovery. Questions one might wish to answer by such studies would include: How might such information, under what circumstances, be presented to or withheld from the public for what ends? What might be the role of the discovering scientists and other decision makers regarding release of the fact of discovery?" – pages 183–184
"An individual's reactions to such a radio contact would in part depend on his cultural, religious, and social background, as well as on the actions of those he considered authorities and leaders, and their behavior, in turn, would in part depend on their cultural, social, and religious environment. The discovery would certainly be front-page news everywhere; the degree of political or social repercussion would probably depend on leadership's interpretation of (1) its own role, (2) threats to that role, and (3) national and personal opportunities to take advantage of the disruption or reinforcement of the attitudes and values of others. Since leadership itself might have great need to gauge the direction and intensity of public attitudes, to strengthen its own morale and for decision making purposes, it would be most advantageous to have more to go on than personal opinions about the opinions of the public and other leadership groups." – page 183
"The knowledge that life existed in other parts of the universe might lead to a greater unity of men on Earth, based on the 'oneness' of man or on the age-old assumption that any stranger is threatening. Much would depend on what, if anything, was communicated between man and the other beings . . ." – page 183
"The positions of the major American religious denominations, the Christian sects, and the Eastern religions on the matter of extraterrestrial life need elucidation. Consider the following: 'The Fundamentalist (and anti-science) sects are growing apace around the world . . . For them, the discovery of other life -- rather than any other space product -- would be electrifying. . . . some scattered studies need to be made both in their home centers and churches and their missions, in relation to attitudes about space activities and extraterrestrial life.'" – page 102, n.34[3]
"If plant life or some subhuman intelligence were found on Mars or Venus, for example, there is on the face of it no good reason to suppose these discoveries, after the original novelty had been exploited to the fullest and worn off, would result in substantial changes in perspectives or philosophy in large parts of the American public, at least any more than, let us say, did the discovery of the coelacanth or the panda." – page 103, n.34
"If super intelligence is discovered, the results become quite unpredictable. It is possible that if the intelligence of these creatures were sufficiently superior to ours, they would choose to have little if any contact with us. On the face of it, there is no reason to believe that we might learn a great deal from them, especially if their physiology and psychology were substantially different from ours."– page 103, n.34
"It has been speculated that, of all groups, scientists and engineers might be the most devastated by the discovery of relatively superior creatures, since these professions are most clearly associated with the mastery of nature, rather than with the understanding and expression of man. Advanced understanding of nature might vitiate all our theories at the very least, if not also require a culture and perhaps a brain inaccessible to Earth scientists." – page 103, n.34
"It is perhaps interesting to note that when asked what the consequences of the discovery of superior life would be, an audience of Saturday Review readership chose, for the most part, not to answer the question at all, in spite of their detailed answers to many other speculative questions." – page 103, n.34
"A possible but not completely satisfactory means for making the possibility 'real' for many people would be to confront them with present speculations about the I.Q. of the porpoise and to encourage them to expand on the implications of this situation." – page 105, n.36
"Such studies would include historical reactions to hoaxes, psychic manifestations, unidentified flying objects, etc. Hadley Cantril's study, Invasion from Mars (Princeton University Press, 1940), would provide a useful if limited guide in this area. Fruitful understanding might be gained from a comparative study of factors affecting the responses of primitive societies to exposure to technologically advanced societies. Some thrived, some endured, and some died." – page 105, n.37
Conclusions
While not specifically recommending a cover-up of evidence of extraterrestrial life, the report does suggest that contact with intelligent extraterrestrial life (or strong evidence of its reality) could have a disruptive effect on human societies. Moreover, it does mention the possibility that leadership might wish to withhold evidence of extraterrestrial life from the public under some conditions.
Some ufologists and conspiracy theorists[5] argue that this section of the report, by outlining plausible motives for government suppression of a discovery of extraterrestrial intelligence, furnishes evidence of an ongoing cover-up of intelligent extraterrestrial life already discovered.[citation needed]
In an email published by The Virtually Strange Network, entitled "Brookings Report Re-examined", Keith Woodard writes that the Brookings Report:
"...did raise the possibility of withholding information, but took no position on its advisability. 'Questions one might wish to answer by such studies,' intoned the report, 'would include: how might such information, under what circumstances, be presented to or withheld from the public for what ends? What might be the role of the discovering scientists and other decision makers regarding release of the fact of discovery?' Those two sentences comprise the report's entire commentary on the subject of covering up the truth."
Others argue that many passages from this section of the report (e.g., those passages that suggest close study of the historical record regarding the effects on traditional cultures of contact with previously unfamiliar or technologically more advanced societies) comment on the subject of cover-up indirectly by suggesting factors that leaders would want to consider if faced with a decision about whether to release such information to the public.
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Post by johannes on Nov 22, 2020 3:41:45 GMT 10
Another take on the Fermi Paradox.
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Post by dennisw on Nov 22, 2020 8:45:48 GMT 10
The biggest truth comes right toward the end, the universe is truly enormous and even if there are many civilisations they may be spread so far apart they might never discover each other.
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Post by Ian Thomas on Nov 22, 2020 17:37:47 GMT 10
The problem with the "enormous universe = thinly spread" argument is that it merely means there's more space for a colonising race to spread into. Which means they'd be even easier to see from far away.
The fact we don't see signs of super-civilisations that harvest the energy of entire galaxies argues for their non-existence.
Hence the puzzle deepens.
The puzzle is deepened even more by our failure to find any trace of life on Mars, our neighbour planet.
If what we think we know about how life gets started is true, then life should have got going on Mars at about the same time it appeared on Earth. Yet Mars is dead and sterile. Our robots have spent decades closely examining the planet's surface yet we have found not the slightest sign that anything ever lived there, not at any time in the deepest past.
To me, this absence says there's something fundamentally wrong with our theories about life, about its origin and evolution.
And that's obviously not unrelated to the question of ET .. that is to say, the absence of ET.
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Post by dennisw on Nov 23, 2020 9:31:37 GMT 10
The problem with the "enormous universe = thinly spread" argument is that it merely means there's more space for a colonising race to spread into. Which means they'd be even easier to see from far away. The fact we don't see signs of super-civilisations that harvest the energy of entire galaxies argues for their non-existence. Hence the puzzle deepens. The puzzle is deepened even more by our failure to find any trace of life on Mars, our neighbour planet. If what we think we know about how life gets started is true, then life should have got going on Mars at about the same time it appeared on Earth. Yet Mars is dead and sterile. Our robots have spent decades closely examining the planet's surface yet we have found not the slightest sign that anything ever lived there, not at any time in the deepest past. To me, this absence says there's something fundamentally wrong with our theories about life, about its origin and evolution. And that's obviously not unrelated to the question of ET .. that is to say, the absence of ET. There is one explanation that nobody really wants to discuss because it might seem unscientific and that is what if the Biblical version is correct? Maybe the Creator built the whole damned thing for our benefit. |
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Post by Ian Thomas on Nov 23, 2020 13:03:03 GMT 10
There is one explanation that nobody really wants to discuss because it might seem unscientific and that is what if the Biblical version is correct? Maybe the Creator built the whole damned thing for our benefit. In that case, the Universe is a simulation. Spooky.  As Fitzgerald had Omar Khayyam say ..
'Tis nothing but a Magic Shadow-show,
Play'd in a Box whose Candle is the Sun,
Round which we Phantom Figures come and go.On other hand, what if what we see is real and what's recited in ancient texts is mere myth?
The Bible is a document woven together from sources much older than Hezekiah's time, when it seems to have been composed as a consolidated religious text for the Kingdom of Judah. Many hands and much politics went into its composition. When picked apart, the Old Testament yields surprising insights into the mid eastern early Iron Age and something of the Late Bronze Age. One readily concedes that it contains a lot of actual history, albeit mixed in with truly ancient mythologies. Can anyone really say the Old Testament is a "divine" or "holy" work? Is any religious text supposedly inspired by whatever god(s) a "holy work"?
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Post by dennisw on Nov 24, 2020 9:30:20 GMT 10
There is serious scientific discussion over the holographic nature of the universe you can Google "holographic universe" for some articles, but what is fascinating is that it was believed that there would be detectable radiation coming from outside the known universe if that was the case. Once the article was published another group of scientists announced that they had been trying to identify a certain frequency they had detected, now that was a spooky moment because both had calculated the same properties of the radiation.
It all has to do with the same enormous number that keeps recurring in all observations 1040 from the size of the known universe to quanta and time all reflect the same value. Now that is also spooky.
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Post by dennisw on Dec 20, 2020 12:58:14 GMT 10
Maybe we do have evidence;
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Post by dennisw on Jan 16, 2021 11:06:49 GMT 10
Another view
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Post by dennisw on Nov 4, 2022 10:37:51 GMT 10
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Post by Ian Thomas on Nov 20, 2022 7:51:10 GMT 10
A couple of astrophycists think they have found the aliens; Here's the paper in question ... Discovery of Peculiar Periodic Spectral Modulations in a Small Fraction of Solar-type Stars.
It's obvious these guys would like their signals to be ET - as would we all. Hmmm. 🤔
But stars do vibrate, pulsate and wiggle (because of orbiting planets). And Fourier Transforms can extract signals from any kind of noise so long as there's some kind of periodicity present, even when way below the noise floor. So ... needs validation. Lots of.
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