New Thylacine Sightings

[molloch]

Just quickly, as I on site with a client:

www.caseyweeklycranbourne.com.au/news/local/news/general/tiger-by-the-tale-glimpses-of-a-beast/2648138.aspx

Including this interesting one:

"Hampton Park reader David Chinn rang the Weekly to say he saw a dead Tasmanian tiger in 1973 when he was a lighthouse keeper at Cape Otway.

"My colleague saw an animal in the chicken run and shot it. He dragged it out to the watchroom so I could see it."

[DP]

I know where we can hire a portable ground penetrating radar, who is interested in a trip to Cape Otway?

- D.P.

[seth24]

Interesting article molloch, whether legit is the other question ? Various sightings in the cranbourne area and basically
in the south-west gippy area and metro area up as far into the dande ranges is interesting. This brings back the question were
tigers in fact released in the late 19 century into that southern point of victoria. Proof could be in the making, regarding the buried animal, if the location where it was buried can be found and confirmed. With the amount of sightings coming out of the S.E and 'localised' sightings in melb urban areas, one has to wonder whether that these sightings are in fact genuine and not
hoax's or fabrications. I genuinely hope so. cheers seth ;D

[arca]

"Mr Chinn said they buried the animal. He said he told several people about the animal over the years but no one ever believed him."

The logical thing would be to go to the spot and dig it up. If something was there in the first place, it will be there now.

[mingle]

Regarding the "Cape Otway" incident, you're right - why not simply go and dig up the remains?

Onto the Cranbourne sightings - I live not a stones throw from there and travel along that road every couple of weeks. I can honestly say that I can't think of a more unlikely place to find a thylcaine.

It's right at the outer-edge of the Melbourne suburbs, with the some of the fastest population-growth of anywhere in the country. It borders onto open farmland (primarily dairy/beef-farming and market-gardening) with very little in the way of cover and even less suitable prey-species (unless the Cranny thylacines like the odd stray cat). There are a few foxes in the area and probably the odd stray dog, which would be a far more likely explanation for these reported sightings.

If people are claiming sightings in the Cranbourne area, what does that say about the other 'convincing' sightings that are reported from far more likely locations?

Mike.

[dennisw]

t's right at the outer-edge of the Melbourne suburbs, with the some of the fastest population-growth of anywhere in the country. It borders onto open farmland (primarily dairy/beef-farming and market-gardening) with very little in the way of cover and even less suitable prey-species (unless the Cranny thylacines like the odd stray cat).

What was the area like in 1973 when the incident was reported?

[youcantry]

Dennis - the Cranbourne sighting was from July this year apparently.

Mingle - the SE SA spate of sightings in late 1960s through early 1970s happened when woodland was opened up for clearing - ie, thylacines were displaced from habitat and then sighted as they attempted to retreat.

I heard a similar story about Tasmania's north-east during my recent trip there. The tasmanian-tiger.com website lists about a dozen sightings from the 1980s. Someone on my trip told me that sightings have decreased from then until about zero now and they felt the trend was that the sightings were actually moving westward toward the fringes of Launceston during the final years.

That's not to say I have any opinion about tigers in Cranbourne ... just interesting that the apparent pattern is for the tiger to flee habitat disturbance, into the visibility of established regions ... I guess hoping to run and find somewhere else to hide.

If that's in fact what happened in the past (and I have a feel many earlier accounts talk about the thylacine "retreating" into the highlands and thinly settled regions - including in SA) - then that may lend weight to SW Tas still being a favourable hideout despite what we may think.

All speculation and conjecture :/

[youcantry]

PS - I forgot to say, in the Tas NE, all the old growth forest has been cleared and replaced with plantations - during that period from 1980s through to now.

[youcantry]

DP - I'm always up for a field trip ;D

[mingle]

I believe that the majority of the area around Cranbourne was cleared for farming from the late 1800s, with just the odd area of untouched scrub (nothing big enough to conceal a population of thylacines).

Here's an aerial photo of the town in the 1960s (from a quick Google):

1.bp.blogspot.com/_r5F9IiUYv3Y/TTellOBLXPI/AAAAAAAAAek/PZlI9vlLNAQ/s1600/1963%2Baerial.jpg

The area surrounding the town (open farmland) can be seen in a few spots in the photo and hasn't changed much to this day.

Mike.

[molloch]

IMHO, Cranbourne is one of the most unlikely places for Thylacines continued existence in Australia. It has been open, cleared farmland for at least a century, and has been built up significantly in the last few decades.

[youcantry]

How about Sydney? Or outskirts of Bris? I've had both those.

[Thylacoleo Gal]

Aug 13, 2012 15:37:25 GMT 10 molloch said:

IMHO, Cranbourne is one of the most unlikely places for Thylacines continued existence in Australia.....

Not quite! We had a thylacine report from ....


.... wait for it ....

......

..... Moorabbin! ;D ;D



*: On a plausibility scale of, say, -5 to +5, what would you give it?

[dennisw]

I would discount any reports from built up areas, even in Tas when these things were common they were very elusive, as are many of our native animals. We only ever see possums at night and koalas are rarely sighted but we know they are there and we have even had a few wombat sightings. I had not heard of a wombat in this area for many years but found scats in the forest one day and was surprised but shortly after I heard of two sightings.

[exoldrover]

If people are claiming sightings in the Cranbourne area, what does that say about the other 'convincing' sightings that are reported from far more likely locations?

It says that as thylacine reports are generated in an area without thylacines, there's no reason to believe them wherever they come from.

[seth24]

We cannot dismiss these areas out entirely, just because
they ain't thought to be the natural habitat of the thylacine. With
many areas being "raped" due to forestry, farming and housing,
any remnant populations of an animal thought to be extinct will
find itself being pushed into more isolated areas, and in doing this
will undoubtedly encroach into populated areas, not being any fault of the animal. After all the kangaroo has been able to adapt
and to an extent "live" in an urbanised enviroment. I know the kangaroo's situation is different to the thylacine ,but after all ain't
they marsupial. We also have the Koala, wombat( to a certain
extent) that have encroached into populated areas.
Three sightings in the melbourne metro area this year which
hav'nt as yet been proved to be of a genuine case, leaves me at
a 40- 60 chance, 60 being a more likely chance. I will remain
optimistic. ;D

[youcantry]

Aug 14, 2012 2:45:45 GMT 10 exoldrover said:

If people are claiming sightings in the Cranbourne area, what does that say about the other 'convincing' sightings that are reported from far more likely locations?

It says that as thylacine reports are generated in an area without thylacines, there's no reason to believe them wherever they come from.

Not so. If I say I saw a koala in the middle of George St, Sydney, that doesn't mean your koala sighting out in the bush is false.

[youcantry]

I have just finished speaking to Mr David Chinn about the animal that the news article says was buried in 1973. Full account here: bit.ly/otway-tiger

[youcantry]

Oh - one more thing - apparently foxes inhabit urbanised areas at 4 times the density as bush areas - yet how many people do you think, out of the tens of thousands in any suburb - have ever seen a fox in their suburb? If a thylacine was pressured into urban areas as seth notes may be possible (and my Tas contact reckons happened in the north-east of Tas), then a single sighting on the odd occasion is about all you'd expect, I reckon.

[seth24]

Good stuff chris. Interesting conversation and article chris.
I gather mr chinn, being new to australia at the time, that he would not have had much knowledge on australian native animals
let alone a thylacine. Although going by his description of the animal (tan-beige with dark striping) would not suggest a "tall tale". What impression, just talking to the man, did you get.
I would have guessed that mr jones would'nt have known what he was shooting at, until it was too late. A bit of conjecture of what actually happened to the animals body, and again we have
a situation where we probably will not ever know, being that mr jones has passed away. Interesting in the fact that a lot of reports, are mainly coming from the lower south coastal areas from afar as southern gippsland, the metro area and right along
the coastal fringes ,portland and up into the south coastal areas of South Australia. Maybe the otways could sustain a remnant
population of thylacines, whether that be in the form of 'individual'
groups, or lone individuals. ;D

[exoldrover]

We cannot dismiss these areas out entirely, just because
they ain't thought to be the natural habitat of the thylacine...

and

Not so. If I say I saw a koala in the middle of George St, Sydney, that doesn't mean your koala sighting out in the bush is false.


There's no evidence to suggest that thylacines still exist. Which obviously isn't the same thing as being certain they don't. The only thing we have to go on is wishful thinking, hope and eye witness stories.

My point was that there's no reason to think these reports are genuine, which again isn't the same thing as being sure they're false.

[greatdane]

We know next to nothing about the biology and ecology of the Thylacine, and the small tidbits we have are often contradictory, ex: some say they were unafraid of people ( coming right up to camps, when they smelled food), others stating they were very elusive.
Let´s assume, for arguments sake, they were nomadic. Then the sightings in suburban environments could be the result of an animal passing through, finding something of interest and investigating the surroundings before moving on. It doesn´t have to be a case of habituation like say the foxes living in urban environments like they do all over the world.

[youcantry]

Aug 14, 2012 19:15:16 GMT 10 seth24 said:

What impression, just talking to the man, did you get.

His accent sounded like it had a Chinese background but a very broad Australian accent over the top. He sounded very positive, enthusiastic and charismatic.

I think he thought there was some irony in how much attention his report was getting given that in 1974 he felt like he was treated like he was a nutcase.

He seemed up-front, willing to talk and receptive to questions. In a nutshell, genuine, enthusiastic and helpful.

[Deleted]

When i lived at Parachilna in the Flinders Ranges, a gentleman called in, after he heard of my cat interest at the local.

He had with him a cast of a thylacine rear foot.
He was an amateur biologist from SE SA and had led fossil digs per some university in Adelaide.
His story was that he and others made a trip up The Border Track N from Bordertown. It was raining lightly when they saw a roo cross the track. It seemed distressed so they stopped to observe.
They saw a thylacine cross the track on the scent of the roo.
He followed using a torch for light and saw the roo bail up near a tree. The thyla dived in and took hold of the roo across the thorax and crushed it. It then turned on the man who retreated. Tracks made by yhe thyla were covered over to save them for casting.
Next day they went to the site and made casts of the thyla tracks.
As i still resided at Para it would have had to be around 2000
In 2001 I made my last visit to farmer friend in the Strathbogie area. He took me to a known thylacine den, in a hollow tree, and
I know it was occupied.
The fellow with the foot cast, thought he found thyla track going under a fence, He madeup an autocam using a pressure can to operate the camera. It was a fox down on its hocks to get under the fence.
Cheers BC

[Deleted]

A bit more.
In the morning they found more tracks where an apparent female with a pup had crossed the road and joined in he feed,
So there we have it.
Do they form family units or did the female follow up hoping for some left overs, The roo was consumed and the skin had been sleeved off the carcass. A known thylacine trait.
BC

[arca]

Aug 17, 2012 4:55:56 GMT 10 @bushcat said:

When i lived at Parachilna in the Flinders Ranges, a gentleman called in, after he heard of my cat interest at the local.

He had with him a cast of a thylacine rear foot.
He was an amateur biologist from SE SA and had led fossil digs per some university in Adelaide.
His story was that he and others made a trip up The Border Track N from Bordertown. It was raining lightly when they saw a roo cross the track. It seemed distressed so they stopped to observe.
They saw a thylacine cross the track on the scent of the roo.
He followed using a torch for light and saw the roo bail up near a tree. The thyla dived in and took hold of the roo across the thorax and crushed it. It then turned on the man who retreated. Tracks made by yhe thyla were covered over to save them for casting.
Next day they went to the site and made casts of the thyla tracks.
As i still resided at Para it would have had to be around 2000
In 2001 I made my last visit to farmer friend in the Strathbogie area. He took me to a known thylacine den, in a hollow tree, and
I know it was occupied.
The fellow with the foot cast, thought he found thyla track going under a fence, He madeup an autocam using a pressure can to operate the camera. It was a fox down on its hocks to get under the fence.
Cheers BC

Fascinating story. I'm usually a bit more skeptical about thylacine sightings from Australia, since its hard to imagine an apex predator survive for thousands of years without being noticed. But this does sound intriguing.

[Isengard]

I guess this whole discussion does tell us some things. Firstly thylacines did not seem to settle in urban areas in the same way as foxes have. It would seem relatively easy for animals to scavenge from urban bins and probably provide a good diet. However, in a place like Australia is the pressure there to do this on an animal? I mean in the uK clearly the population density and land use restricts foxes to where they can live and forces them into towns. Australia seems a lot more sparsely settled and so the pressure to do this would presumably be less. It might alos show that thylacines are more naturally nervous and elusive than foxes. People may not see foxes but their presence is clear, in the case of red foxes over here they cry a very recognisable noise and leave all manner of marks. Is it that unlikely that they would inhabit famed areas? They could prey on livestock and presumably there are only occasional farmers/farm workers in any given area. It might be an easier environment in some ways possibly dependent upon the amount of cover that is left, are these regions with completely open, flat arable fields for miles or are they broken up with copses of trees, small woods, etc?

[molloch]

We know a fair bit about Thylacine ecology from the fossil record. They are present, but not common, in almost all Pleistocene sites across Australia. They lived on the Nullarbor, for example, when it was no different (climate or habitat -wise) from its current ecology (treeless desert). They lived in SW WA in the same conditions that are there now (mixed temperate forests) and probably in the Kimberlys (Tropical woodland). It was found in Wellington (open woodland) and Far-Western (Mallee scrub) NSW, the Darling Downs (open grassland and flood plains) and Chinchilla and Pilton (probably subtropical forest) QLD, they were also found in the volcanic plains in SW Victoria as well as Lancefield swamp, Buchan and Portland.

In short, they are not generally restricted to any particular climate, vegetation pattern or habitat. This is pretty much standard for generalised carnivores.

As for foxes, I used to work night shift in North Melbourne and drive home at 3-4 AM most nights. I saw suburban foxes almost every night, especially around North Melbourne, Brunswick and Coburg. Not so many in the outskirts of Melbourne (ie Campbellfield, Cragieburn etc) but they were common again from about Donnybrook/Kalkallo and North up the Hume. Never saw a Thylacine, though...

I don't see why Thylacines would not scavenge around urban areas. They are obviously adaptable, generalised carnivores - very similar to a fox or dog. I often wonder whether the first indigenous Australians would have managed to domesticate them somewhat if they had known the value of dogs, as they did more recently. There are plenty of stories of Thylacines approaching camps and following people pre 1930, whether there is much truth in this I don't know, but it does fit with known generalised carnivore behaviour. Devils are known to live close to people - they will raid chook pens (as do quolls) I wonder if they also get into bins?

Edit:
Maybe I should try Googling instead of wondering? Apparently they do and it is fairly common.

[seth24]

Re: interactions with humans. I have read various accounts
by individuals who were around at a time when the thylacine
was in abundance, and actually observed the animal in captivity,
in zoo's and animals which were captured ie trapped etc and were taken home and kept as a " farm/pet" animal, that the
thylacine was an extremerely 'placid' animal, especially kept in
a situation as this. The more human contact overtime makes me
wonder whether the thylacine could have become
"man's best friend" so to speak (which inevitably were instead subjected to persecution and destruction by man.
After all the aboriginies did however, introduce the dingo to a
human enviroment, and even today are kept in sancturies, and
breeding enviroments and in cases are 'pets'. ;D

[cabbageweevil]

Robert Paddle in his book "The Last Tasmanian Tiger", relates accounts from various residents of Tasmania from earlyish European settlement times, to the 1920s, who had thylacines as pets; confirming that they made good pets -- relationship comparable with that of placental dog / human, only thylacines were somewhat more independent, and less servile toward their "person". Paddle laments the circumstance that -- assuming the species is indeed now extinct -- the opportunity for any thylacine / human relationship is gone for ever.

I've heard of an alternative-history work (unfortunately, don't know any details) with a premise of the 19th-century British upper crust taking to thylacines as pets -- every nobleman / country gentleman in England worth his salt, wants one or a couple or a whole pack: under the impetus of this great demand, ways are found to get them to breed; the lower orders come to imitate the gentry re this fashion, and the species takes off hugely in domestication. One feels, it might have happened -- only it didn't...

It does often seem to me that there must be a curse on this species. A variety of ways in which it might have caught a lucky break; but it never did, in any of them.